Interview with Dalit rights academic and activist Dr Suraj Yengde
Words & Interview by Puja Nandi
Leading Dalit rights academic and author of Caste Matters (2019) Dr Suraj Yengde recently featured in Origin, the film based on the life of journalist Isabel Wilkerson as she writes the book Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents. Puja Nandi chats with Suraj about the film, Dalit rights and the diaspora’s lack of engagement in conversations around casteism.
Dr Suraj Yengde is one of India’s leading Dalit rights academics. He features in the film Origin, which depicts the life of journalist and author Isabel Wilkerson, specifically through the research she undertakes for her book Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents (2020). In the film, Isabel formulates the theory that there is something deeper than race which explains discrimination towards Black Americans and other groups that have been subject to racial discrimination. She says caste is a better way of understanding this prejudice than race and in Origin, we see her travel to India to meet academics on this topic, one of whom is Suraj who plays himself in the film.
As well as being a prolific expert on caste, Suraj is a transnational activist. He’s spotlighted the plight of Dalits as well as building solidarity between Dalit, Black, Roma, Indigenous, Buraku and refugee people. He is a co-convener of the Dalit-Black Lives Matter symposium and the Dalit and Black Power movement and author of Caste Matters (2019) which was influential to Wilkerson’s work.
The caste system of India is a hereditary hierarchy that has been embedded into Indian society since ancient times. It’s tragically a system that prevails in many parts of India today, despite legal protections. Dalits are considered to be at the bottom of this hierarchy and have suffered extreme discrimination throughout history, such as being designated jobs that are deemed too unclean for the “higher castes” or being denied certain positions within professional jobs or admittance to particular universities. Suraj is making waves in this area, as someone who was born into the Dalit caste himself, he is now spending his life’s work on uplifting the voices of those faced with similar oppression and contributing to the intellectual sphere of caste-based discrimination. Although brief, we had the pleasure of speaking to him.
Puja: In Origin, we see Isabel Wilkerson travel to India to further her research behind her book Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents. There are a few scenes where we see you, playing yourself, as an academic who meets Isabel to share your expertise on the Indian caste system and the discrimination faced by Dalits. This helped Wilkerson draw parallels between the treatment of Dalits and the discrimination faced by Black people in America. Did that visit happen in real life and is that what inspired your role in the film?
Suraj: She did go to Delhi to meet other scholars but the scene where we meet in Delhi didn’t actually happen! We did meet a couple of times elsewhere though. Once was in Cambridge where we took part in a conference on Ambedkar and then I hosted her to give a talk at Harvard. I didn’t know she was working on a book back then. In her book, she talks about meeting a scholar from India in Cambridge on Dalit rights and the role of Ambedkar and that guy is me.
There is something that is more common than colour or race that connects these groups of people who face discrimination and that is caste
P: In the film, Isabel researches the legacy of B.R. Ambedkar and how he paved the way for the Indian constitution in 1950 to take action to outlaw caste discrimination and to introduce positive action quotas for Dalits and indigenous people. However, it’s clear that the caste system is deeply entrenched on a societal level and caste discrimination is still rife across India and beyond. Despite the country’s constitutional protections and provisions, there still seems to be a long way to go for Dalits. What do you think Ambedkar would say today about caste discrimination in India?
S: There’s very much a long way to go for Dalits. Ambedkar would want to ensure Dalits remain in positions of leadership and are not subsumed as secondary alliance partners. He would have difficulty in dealing with the current state of affairs. There are piecemeal rights for Dalits that look great on paper and when you compare their struggle to, say 50 years ago, their rights are obviously better now than before but it’s relative. Dalits still live in fearful conditions that they won’t be hired even though there’s a designated quota for them to be hired for certain jobs. It’s not just government where this is a problem, but it’s also apparent across organisations, universities, and institutions that express antipathy towards Dalits. It’s also difficult for many other groups of people like young people who don’t have jobs, the working class, and Dalit women in particular. The current problems in India are not just a graph of Dalits but also a graph of different groups across India who are struggling too.
P: In Origin, Isabel puts forward the theory that racism as the primary lens to understand discrimination is insufficient and that there must be something deeper going on behind that. She points to there being a human and social flaw that’s existed since ancient times that consists of a need to put people in different boxes, different hierarchies and different bandings of power. Would you say that’s a theory you agree with?
S: Yes, definitely. Caste is a hierarchy that one is born into and one is limited to that place for social, economic or political factors. The rules that the caste system creates give people a status which can either impose privilege or disadvantage but either way, status remains a pertinent feature of this type of social system. A sound academic working in this area takes into account many facets of society; you can’t just look at race or caste as mutually exclusive as to do so would be reductive. In the Dalit scholarly sphere, Dalits don’t look at themselves as isolated beings. They think of themselves as part of a broader identity and this is what Ambedkar talked about too. He drew parallels between Dalits and the discrimination faced by Black people. That’s how the Dalit Panther movement was created — it was inspired by the Black Panther movement in the US. There is something that is more common than colour or race that connects these groups of people who face discrimination and that is caste, this creation of a social hierarchy.
There are places of worship within the diaspora from Hindu temples to Sikh gurdwaras that are hotbeds for casteism in the UK
P: The conversation on caste seems to be almost absent outside of India even though it exists within the diaspora too. What are your thoughts, if any, on the South Asian diaspora engaging with Dalit rights? In particular, as I am part of the British South Asian diaspora, how do you think those of us living in the UK can help further the conversation on Dalit rights in a positive way?
S: It is mortifying to see that there is so much refusal of the impacts of caste within the diaspora. In particular, people of our generation and younger ones are not engaging with it as more than just a marginal issue. The UK’s South Asian community is an amazing and beautiful mix, right? But within that mix, there are so many religions, including Islam and Christianity, that become concocted with caste sensibilities. So many religions are affected by caste but don’t do much to engage in the conversation. There are places of worship within the diaspora from Hindu temples to Sikh gurdwaras that are hotbeds for casteism in the UK; you have temples for Brahmins, and gurdwaras for Jatts. Casteism is everywhere; it is visible in those locations and more, but no one is talking about it. It’s time for the new generation to inject their energy into this conversation and to call it out and say “This is ridiculous”. You can do that by calling out your parents, your relatives, your places of worship and your institutions.
P: Thank you for highlighting that — there’s clearly so much more we can all do and it often starts at home. Will you be putting out a new book soon?
S: Actually, I was up until 2am last night as I finally submitted my manuscript to my publishers! My next book is going to be called Caste: A New History of the World, and it’s about what we just talked about. It profiles the diaspora anti-caste movement in the UK, the US and elsewhere. The UK has a history of being involved in anti-caste movements from the 1960s in places like Southhall, Wolverhampton, Bedford and Plaistow.
P: It sounds like a fascinating read! I look forward to exploring your work further which is so important in the fight to dismantle casteism.Thank you again for taking the time to talk with me!
S: I really appreciate you and thank you for your brilliant questions!
You can learn more about Suraj’s work here.
